Curse

Creeping Carl · Feb 14, 2008, 07:47 AM // 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Well, it wasn't really that much of a nerf... Monsters were idiots to stand in AoE and it was imbalanced. Elementalists had to learn how to use a snare/get a tank with one. But yeah, too many balances were made in the past to ignore Ursan now.

Yes, it really wasnt too much of a nerf but you'd have thought otherwise judging from the outraged reactions of many. Many of which are probably the same people who think Ursan is just fine.

Creeping Carl · Feb 14, 2008, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrimEye

Let's be Lenon-like: Imagine GW Without Ursan.

Will the economy get better? No.

Will the discrimination vanished? No.

Will the button-mashing stop? No.

Will boredom go away? No.

Will people begin massive PUGGING again for camaraderie spirit? No.

Will it teach people to make better build and better player? No.

*snip*

Ursan or no ursan, the problems of GW will remain.

You know, I was going to somewhat agree with you that removing UB at this point won't change much. GW is pretty much on it's way out and since UB was introduced at the tailend of the last of the new content, the damage it's doing is minimal. (But I'd like to point out that a lot of those issues you listed have nothing to do with UB, with or without it)

But then you go on and went too far with the nonsense here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrimEye

What next? Pain inverter? What next? All PVE-skills? Remove Titles? Remove HoM? Remove elite gloves and destroyer weapons? (You just took out over half the content of GWEN) What next? Kurzick/Luxon alliance skill? What next? Remove ritualist and assassin profession? Take out Urgoz/Deep? (just took out sizeable content of Faction) What next? Remove heroes? (just took out the heart of Nightfall content). What next? Ecto and UW/FoW?

Yeah so you lost me here with the absurdity. It's just ridiculous.

GrimEye · Feb 14, 2008, 08:04 AM // 08:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creeping Carl

You know, I was going to somewhat agree with you that removing UB at this point won't change much. GW is pretty much on it's way out and since UB was introduced at the tailend of the last of the new content, the damage it's doing is minimal. (But I'd like to point out that a lot of those issues you listed have nothing to do with UB, with or without it)

Yeah so you lost me here with the absurdity. It's just ridiculous.

Carl, the point was, if Ursan goes, people would still find another goat to blame for what's wrong with GW. The problem people attached to Ursan will be again attached to another issue.

BTW, How would you "balance" Ursan?

Creeping Carl · Feb 14, 2008, 08:17 AM // 08:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrimEye

Carl, the point was, if Ursan goes, people would still find another goat to blame for what's wrong with GW. The problem people attached to Ursan will be again attached to another issue.

Umm the only way for there to be nothing wrong to be found with GW is when it hits divine status and is completely perfect. That's not possible with anything. Are you saying that people should never point flaws out for fear of there being another flaw popping out later?

And we arent just randomly "blaming" UB for no reason here. We've explained all the reasons, I think you should go read some of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrimEye

BTW, How would you "balance" Ursan?

I can't answer that now since it would take some thinking about .... it's not something that you just nerf mindlessly since people will then complain how useless it would be.

Pro-Monk · Feb 14, 2008, 08:37 AM // 08:37

It's true, players will always find something to complain about what other players are doing. A lot of Anet's nerf mistakes (?) have come from giving too much credence to those screaming for a particular nerf.

It's obvious that Anet knows exactly how powerful Ursan Blessing was when they put it in the game. Why should they now nerf it because SOME players don't want OTHER players to have it.

This is simply another case of some players wanting to interfere with how others play the game. Get over it.

GrimEye · Feb 14, 2008, 08:45 AM // 08:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creeping Carl

Umm the only way for there to be nothing wrong to be found with GW is when it hits divine status and is completely perfect. That's not possible with anything. Are you saying that people should never point flaws out for fear of there being another flaw popping out later?

And we arent just randomly "blaming" UB for no reason here. We've explained all the reasons, I think you should go read some of them.

Im all for pointing out flaws. I've read the arguments, would you believe? Have you read what people say on your side about people who use ursan? I wish more people would stay on the issue, and the argument on points of relevance, not turn to clashing egos and saving face in a public forum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creeping Carl

I can't answer that now since it would take some thinking about .... it's not something that you just nerf mindlessly since people will then complain how useless it would be.

Exactly, my sentiments. Pivotal word is, mindless. One-liners, funny pictures, funny avatars, is not a solution. Actually, there ae 3 possible things I have in mind that can happen with Ursan:

1) Take Ursan out of the game completely.

2) Make Ursan totally unusable.

3) and the Middle ground, which would take more thinking and idea-sharing than bashing from both extremes.

Personally, it doesn't matter. I use Ursan but it's not a big part of my gameplay. I would be extrenely happy if people would accept a Spirit Strenght Rit in a regular party but that never happens unless I H/H.

It so easy to point out problems. But it's a bit tad hard to point out problems and, at the same time, offer a solution.

My take.

EDIT: Carl, I will wait for your suggestion how ursan can be "balance". And I'm not being sarcastic.

KingKryton · Feb 14, 2008, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creeping Carl

And we arent just randomly "blaming" UB for no reason here. We've explained all the reasons, I think you should go read some of them.

i must have missed those reason can you please state them again because all im seeing is "ban ursan its unbalancing GW" without any further explanation into how or why

and yes i enjoy ursan. ive been into the UW 6 times this week. thats more than i ever did in 2 years before ursan came out.

Creeping Carl · Feb 14, 2008, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pro-Monk

It's true, players will always find something to complain about what other players are doing. A lot of Anet's nerf mistakes (?) have come from giving too much credence to those screaming for a particular nerf.

If you hate nerfs so much, why are you playing an MMO where one of the main features is balance between the hundreds of skills? Nerfs occur in all MMOs. Get over it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pro-Monk

It's obvious that Anet knows exactly how powerful Ursan Blessing was when they put it in the game.

Right. In one breath you screaming about ANET constantly making mistakes and in the next breath you declare how ANET could have never done any wrong when they put UB in.

The fact is that skills arent always balanced when they're introduced. The many previous skill balances are proof of that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pro-Monk

Why should they now nerf it because SOME players don't want OTHER players to have it.

Because it's imbalanced? Because they've done so before? And why SHOULDNT they nerf it just because SOME players don't want it nerfed?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pro-Monk

This is simply another case of some players wanting to interfere with how others play the game. Get over it.

There is nothing simple about this. Except maybe your thinking. Games NEED balance whether or not you like it. Get over it.

Anyway, off to bed. I'll reply to the rest of the angry mob tomorrow....

X89 · Feb 14, 2008, 08:51 AM // 08:51

The game was broken before Ursan, get over it. (fyi I didn't read any other post I just saw Ursan and assumed

)

Creeping Carl · Feb 14, 2008, 08:53 AM // 08:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by X89

The game was broken before Ursan, get over it. (fyi I didn't read any other post I just saw Ursan and assumed

)

Sorry just one more post before bed....

If you didnt even read the thread why the hell are you even posting? Another lame standard post of "get over it" isnt helping anything at all. Thanks.

Sab · Feb 14, 2008, 08:54 AM // 08:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrimEye

How would you "balance" Ursan? Remove it from the game? Or what? I guess this question is directed to all as well.

Decrease its power to reflect its ease of use. Make Ursan in line with other button-mashing builds.

A mummified one · Feb 14, 2008, 09:20 AM // 09:20

Interesting discussion. Totally pointless though, since they'll never nerf UB - too many lower-IQ-individuals would get angry, spamming the support with their anger ("WTF!?! Why do I have to use my brains in game! Why do I have to make a proper 8-skills-build!?!"). Although I hope AN will not make the same mistake in GW2's pve, implementing hundreds of skills and causing ppl to use only 1, changing quite a good game into kindergarten.

GrimEye · Feb 14, 2008, 09:27 AM // 09:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

Decrease its power to reflect its ease of use. Make Ursan in line with other button-mashing builds.

I have a simillar idea. But the decrease of power is conditional.

Let me put it in detail:

A lone bear will retain all the benefits of current Ursan rank. But as the number of party members in bear form increase, Ursan Skills gets penalty

URSAN STRIKE: For every party member in bear form, Ursan Strike damage is reduce by 5.
URSAN RAGE: For every party member in bear form, Ursan Rage damage is reduce by 5

BTW, 5 is just an arbitrary numbers.

A lone bear or two isn't really a game breaking problem. I have the feeling some people are uncomfortable when an group of 6 ursan "steamrolls" an area. I am yet not sure if I want to touch on the "hp and armor" bonus because it provides a good buffer for ursan casters. But the "damage reduction" in an ursan party's ability to steamroll would have lesser "steam".

My take.

Abedeus · Feb 14, 2008, 09:44 AM // 09:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrimEye

I have a simillar idea. But the decrease of power is conditional.
(...)

I'd say limit it like other PvE-Only skills - only 3 elite pvp skills in a team. This way people would have to invite non-ursaners to PvE groups.

Wraithe - see that little ,,Log out'' sign on the brown field? Click it and gtfo, we don't need you here. If your only argument against ursan-haters is ,,stop acting childish'', then I guess you are either a moron or/and under twelve.

If people just accepted all things the fate throws at us, my country wouldn't survive longer than to 16th century, as after it we were ravaged by Russia, Germany and few other nations. If something isn't fine for us or it takes away our freedom (I can't go to pugs/with alliance groups to UW/FoW/DoA/Vanquish/anything), we have to fight against it.

V Leave already, we don't need you. The world doesn't need you either. And I already logged out and not coming back to Grind Wars: Blessing of the Ursan until they make some changes to go back to skill > time. Maybe then people like me will come back and people like you will leave. So just gtfo or write a valid argument, like we people-against-Ursan did.

Dark Kal · Feb 14, 2008, 11:00 AM // 11:00

If you think they should nerf "Ursan Blessing", you should also say they should nerf the following:

- 55hp Monk
- 600hp Monk
- E/Me Terra Tank
- W/E Obsidian Tank
- Permant Shadow Form A/Me (or Me/A)
- ...

All of these builds make Hard Mode/Elite Areas a lot easier to do. I think the important question is why do you have a need to feel better than others? It's not that difficult (skillwise) to achieve the Vanquisher title, it's mostly a very time consuming achievement (I have a friend who vanquishes with hench/hero). When I see someone with the Legendary Vanquisher title, I don't think "Wow, that's a really skillful person.", I think "Wow, that's a person with a lot of time on his hands.". I don't mean this in a negative way, I'm actually impressed at the person's dedication to spend so much time and energy into getting those titles but I don't think of that person as particulary skilled. PvE is mainly there for having fun, if it's that important to you to feel better than others then I'd suggest you play PvP and get some PvP titles that actually reflect, at the very least, some skill. And yes, you do care that you are better than others otherwise you would not care so much about this skill since it hardly affects you. And no, the whole ursanway is the only build played argument doesn't count since it's a gross overstatement (I rarely see ursanway teams in the european district, excluding DoA since I never play it so I can't judge).

I agree that "Ursan Blessing" is overpowered compared to other skills but I don't see this as a bad thing. Ursanway allows the more "unpopular" classes to be able to do elite areas (i.e. DoA) rather than the need to have a specific class/specific skillset to be able to do it. As well as that ursanway closes a huge gap between the relatively few skilled people and the large amount of morons (I'm sorry to call them that but that is what they are) that make up the GW world. For those of us who aren't lucky enough of finding good PUGs or fortunate enough to be in a good guild "Ursan Blessing" is a true blessing. If UW, DoA, RoT and several other areas were properly balanced so that a "normal" team allowing any class to participate could do it, I would agree that there wouldn't be much need for ursanway. And most of the elite areas are severly improperly balanced, in particular Realm of Torment and Domain of Anguish. And finally why would I do something the hard way if there's an easier and less time consuming way of doing the same thing when I'm confidend enough in my own skill that I could do it the hard way? That's just having your ego getting in the way of what is practical. I'll always bet on the easy but maybe cheap way of doing something in GW rather than hoping/praying/offering-to-build-several-temples-in-that-deity's-name that I finally end up with a half decent PUG that has some skill.

And in the end the game is about having fun not about elitism.

Abedeus · Feb 14, 2008, 11:12 AM // 11:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Kal

If you think they should nerf "Ursan Blessing", you should also say they should nerf the following:

- 55hp Monk
- 600hp Monk
- E/Me Terra Tank
- W/E Obsidian Tank
- Permant Shadow Form A/Me (or Me/A)
- ...

55 doesn't allow you vanquish areas or play in DoA/Urgoz/Deep.
They already nerfed 600 monk once.
Terra tank too.
Obsi is no longer used.
Perma Shadow as Me/A is nerfed, A/Me version is very very hard to use.

And just because build is durable and it's possible to survive long with it, it doesn't mean it's a viable build. I mean, sure you can for example survive 50 mobs in Shadow Form, if ursans would kill them faster?

And I don't think you were thinking. You said ursan is overpowered, but you don't think it's bad thing?

And yes, it's not about being an elitist in the game, but about fun. There is NO fun in farming level 10 ursan/level 8 lightbringer, then use a 1-2-3 C-Space build.

Oh, and DoA/UW/FoW/RoT (why this last one is even mentioned? it's easy, really) can be ALL run in balanced build. It was never required to use Ursan. For example, one time I went to FoW with a group 1 paragon, 1 warrior (not tank), 4 nukers and 2 monks. We didn't prepare more than 15 minutes, explaining roles, we didn't even use TS. And we easily did every quest for the Forgemaster without any difficulties.

Dark Kal · Feb 14, 2008, 12:24 PM // 12:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

They already nerfed 600 monk once.

They already nerfed Ursan Blessing once. Argument over?

They are still in use and are used in a simular way as ursanway is used.

Quote:

And I don't think you were thinking. You said ursan is overpowered, but you don't think it's bad thing?

Just because something is overpowered doesn't mean you have to dislike it. Some elite areas are poorly balanced hence an overpowered skill like Ursan Blessing nicely compensates. As well as the many other reasons I gave why I like Ursan Blessing.

Quote:

And yes, it's not about being an elitist in the game, but about fun. There is NO fun in farming level 10 ursan/level 8 lightbringer, then use a 1-2-3 C-Space build.

It's your opinion that farming the Norn title to rank 10 isn't fun someone else might think otherwise. Regardless of which you don't need a very high Norn level to make ursanway work, rank 4-5 will mostly do. And the small amount of effort is well worth the increase of fun you'll have with the ease of ursanway.

Quote:

Oh, and DoA/UW/FoW/RoT (why this last one is even mentioned? it's easy, really) can be ALL run in balanced build. It was never required to use Ursan. For example, one time I went to FoW with a group 1 paragon, 1 warrior (not tank), 4 nukers and 2 monks. We didn't prepare more than 15 minutes, explaining roles, we didn't even use TS. And we easily did every quest for the Forgemaster without any difficulties.

I don't find FoW very imbalanced, it's fairly easy hence why I didn't mention it in my previous post. Some of the UW quest are inproperly balanced (i.e. the Four Horseman quest is nearly undoable with a standard team without a gimmick like Ursan Blessing or someone tanking one side). DoA was very particular about what classes were accepted in groups, you would have a lot of trouble in finding a group in DoA if you were a Paragon, Mesmer, Assassin, Ritualist before Ursan Blessing. And most used a cookie cutter build to do DoA anyway. So what's wrong with replacing one cookie cutter build with another one? Atleast Ursan Blessing is available to all classes. RoT is imbalanced IMO sure it's doable but that doesn't make it balanced, for one the groups are cluttered to close to each other.

LeoX · Feb 14, 2008, 01:16 PM // 13:16

Doesn't really affect my game play.
However it is alarming when i see PUGs spamming "UB group for ... r8+ self invite". I never PUG with anyone so it doesn't affect my game play as i said.
But yeah i understand for the people doing it the legitimate way, trying to find groups, worrying about the skill input in the game etc.

Abedeus · Feb 14, 2008, 01:29 PM // 13:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Kal

They already nerfed Ursan Blessing once. Argument over?

They are still in use and are used in a simular way as ursanway is used.

Uhm. But 600 hp used to tank infinite amount of monsters without having to worry about anything. Ursan wasn't really nerfed, as people were close to monsters anyway... They just have to, OH NO! ENGAGE MONSTERS!!

Quote:

Just because something is overpowered doesn't mean you have to dislike it. Some elite areas are poorly balanced hence an overpowered skill like Ursan Blessing nicely compensates. As well as the many other reasons I gave why I like Ursan Blessing.

Read again that bolded part. Again. And again. Still don't understand? Again. Read till you understand that Elite Area means that player must be better than what was during normal storyline.

Quote:

It's your opinion that farming the Norn title to rank 10 isn't fun someone else might think otherwise. Regardless of which you don't need a very high Norn level to make ursanway work, rank 4-5 will mostly do. And the small amount of effort is well worth the increase of fun you'll have with the ease of ursanway.

Sure it will do. But PuG's take ONLY r10. And ONLY r8 lightbringer. Wasting 8 hours (or more, if someone farms both titles from the beginning) a day so I can... Enjoy? Ursan? I was with my guild using Ursanway to clear FoW. Yeah, it was stupid, but we used 2 monks, 1 paragon (me), 1 nuker, 1 DS/Whirlwind and 3 ursans. GOD!! That was the most boring time I've been in FoW ever! I can't imagine what would be with 5 ursans, it would be even faster and even more boring... I mean if someone is excited about pressing 5 buttons blindly (no tactic at all, no skill used or required), then it's something not right with him.

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I don't find FoW very imbalanced, it's fairly easy hence why I didn't mention it in my previous post. Some of the UW quest are inproperly balanced (i.e. the Four Horseman quest is nearly undoable with a standard team without a gimmick like Ursan Blessing or someone tanking one side). DoA was very particular about what classes were accepted in groups, you would have a lot of trouble in finding a group in DoA if you were a Paragon, Mesmer, Assassin, Ritualist before Ursan Blessing. And most used a cookie cutter build to do DoA anyway.

Paragon's could use TNTF + SY build, to make tanks out of whole team. Mesmer could be a smiter in a trio/duo or farm in Stygian Veil solo. And as a fast-cast nuker. Assassin's could try farming solo in UW too or use SY + DB/Moebius combo. Ritualists have even a Team Build in PvXWiki, plus their Shelter, Recuperation, Life and other spirits have an advantage over Monk enchantments, as they can be only interrupted by certain skills, but can't be removed as easily. Plus Weapon Spells are unremovable (Weapon of Quickening for tank/monks).

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So what's wrong with replacing one cookie cutter build with another one? Atleast Ursan Blessing is available to all classes. RoT is imbalanced IMO sure it's doable but that doesn't make it balanced, for one the groups are cluttered to close to each other.

You mean DoA or RoT? Realm of Torment IS NOT imbalanced, I could easily play there as an elementalist, a mesmer and a ranger. And DoA once was too imbalanced, but then they lowered some numbers there, making it better. Still, it's an ELITE area for a reason. And don't forget that maybe UB is available to all classes, but not all people. Some of us don't have GWEN or just don't like playing there. Or we want some CHALLENGE. Those areas were challenging, now everyone goes there as Ursan, because it's easier than to vanquish Shadow Passage or Tahnnakai Temple with the right quest.

Don't forget - Elite Areas were putted for a REASON, that is for good players to complete them, not ursan buttonsmashers.

Avarre · Feb 14, 2008, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Uhm. But 600 hp used to tank infinite amount of monsters without having to worry about anything.

That had nothing to do with 600hp, it was a result of Spirit Bond. You could be a 55 with SB+HB, overkill as it was. Just felt like clarifying.

Quote:

Don't forget - Elite Areas were putted for a REASON, that is for good players to complete them, not ursan buttonsmashers.

This is a good comment. I'm not sure why players want a game they can roll through without challenge, especially as it's easy enough already - it seems like making the game easier would simply reduce the amount of time spent playing before the player moves on to a game with more depth.